(sorry, hit submit too early on that last post)

There’s a lot of nicely cited information on Margaret Sanger here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger. I don’t doubt that you’d find her offensive but it does debunk your statement claiming that she wanted to “rub out” minorities: (from the article) “Despite the allegations of racism, Sanger’s work with minorities earned the respect of civil rights leaders such as Martin Luther King Jr.”

As for “all of these crazy nuts on TV”, these crazy nuts are portrayed as the mainstream Christians on TV and in politics. I would suggest that you focus your energy on distancing yourself and other true Christians from people like that. The “crazy nuts” and crackpots seem to have all the followers and are the ones giving your religion a bad name. I would say that it is that kind of behavior that prompts the mockery you describe. It is also the kind of behavior to which the original quote that started this thread was directed.

For the guy in England, there’s another account of it on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hammond). It seems clear that he violated the law. I’m not saying the law is right, just that he apparently knowingly intended to stir up a protest. There is also no reason for people to have responded the way that they did, or for nobody else to be arrested – I don’t defend that. Lumping non-Christians in with that bunch is like me lumping you in with the

And all of these crazy nuts on TV like that guy who tells everyone that he is Christian and then foamed at the mouth about assassination…or those Westboro people..the Bible talks all about them. Especially near the very end of it. Allow me to quote from Second Peter:

1 But there were false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly put forward wrong teachings for your destruction, even turning away from the Lord who gave himself for them; whose destruction will come quickly, and they themselves will be the cause of it.
2 And a great number will go with them in their evil ways, through whom the true way will have a bad name.
3 And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.

Please read that again, paying special attention to verses 2 and 3. That is what Christians refer to as prophecy. What to call these people, you ask? I don’t know why one should call them anything. As a Christian, I am responsible for not associating with those who claim to be Christians but who are not. They should be corrected…the young should be kept away from them, and then they should be put behind you. It is certainly unhealthy for anyone to constantly watch them and to allow hate towards them to fester. Can you imagine how disgusted I am by those fakers? Those who get in front of a lot of people and act like nuts (and then ask for money)..while loudly proclaiming that they are Christians.

Regarding the ACLU, that is entirely too much for me to post. Look into their history. They started with the same goals that they are pursuing today. They are not for “liberty” as they claim…they have a focus of being anti-Christianity. They want Christianity prohibited in America. That is not just my paranoia and hysteria..it is fact. If you look deep enough, you may find a blatant confession of such from their founders or leaders of today. But who can be surprised at yet another *non-profit* who has sketchy goals? Look up the founder of Planned Parenthood..which organization is closely tied to the ACLU. They just want to give women rights, correct? Their founder, Margaret Sanger, was kind enough to leave quotes about how abortion was a great way to rub out those substandard minorities. I take that personally. But I digress. My point is simply that evil and wickedness is certainly not limited to the “far right” or to the fake Christians..it is deeply rooted in others as well.

Regarding the guy in England..check out: http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/cases/harry_hammond.htm
Christianity is mocked every day…insulted, bumper stickers sold mocking it, blog posts mocking it..and that is perfectly OK. In fact, you’re cool if you do that. Islam..well…they’ll start burning stuff down if you mock them, so it’s intolerant to mock them. But say in a serious tone: “Homosexuality is immoral,” and people will beat up an old man and act as if it is his fault. And then the media hushes up those types of things.

Did you know that a legislator in California said, about a Christian concert, that those types (Christians) are not wanted in San Francisco? We are too intolerant to be tolerated by that tolerant city.

When I referred to “gay bashing” I was talking about actions, not words. Those actions could be legislative or physical, but I might also include speech that actively incites violence. Someone can call me immoral and a sinner all they want – I have no problem with that, but when it turns into actions that effect me then it becomes a problem.

And yes, I do consider Ann “kill their leaders and convert them to christianity” Coulter as a crackpot. I don’t consider someone who follows Christianity to the letter and doesn’t harm others as a crackpot. In fact I would have quite a bit of respect for that person, and have had friends that fit that description.

As for the media question, I don’t have a TV either, but I see enough of it at the gym and other people’s houses to know that I don’t like it and don’t want my daughter to be exposed to it. When something has the attention of the average American for an average of four hours every day then it *becomes* the reality. I find this sickening, but what can we do other than turn it off and throw it out?

Can you refer me to a specific instance of the ACLU harassing a Christian that didn’t involve that Christian trying to push their religion on others? I doubt it. Hell, the ACLU would be the first to defend a Christian if they were on the side of the Constitution.

Your story about England is interesting to me as I currently live in Scotland and often venture down to England for holidays and some business. If someone were to be beaten on the street, regardless of the reason, the assailants would be punished. I don’t have time to look it up, but if you provide a link I’ll read it. Scotland has a much more progressive society, and organized religion isn’t viewed as favorably as in most of the USA, but it is a very civil society. I do have a problem with some of the governments recent actions to ban things like headscarves because I think it makes a judgement about and infringes upon people’s beliefs. I would have the same objection to the government trying to ban any other religious symbol unless the symbol was presented in such as way as to harm others (which I can’t imagine is easy to do).

Your last paragraph is a ridiculous attempt to play the victim. I never said anything negative about Christianity and certainly never “bashed” it. I think Christianity in its pure form is a fine religion that encourages caring and compassion for humanity. But there are people out there who claim to be Christians (Fred Phelps, Ann Coulter, John Ashcroft, George Bush, etc) and who make up the “far right”. Those individuals have millions of people supporting them who also claim to be Christians. If not as crackpots and fundamentalists, how would you have me refer to them?

I also oppose the idea of “hate crime”. Either an action is a crime or it isn’t. Murdering someone for any reason is a hate crime. Speech of any kind is not a crime even though it can apparently get you locked up in Guantanamo, but I’m pretty sure you don’t have to worry about that.

When you mention “taking action” against others who agree with them..and you mention “gay bashing”, are you referring to physical bashing with a stick, or are you referring to someone “simply having a different belief” and expressing their belief that homosexuality is immoral..in the same way that it is OK for you to think someone has “wacky beliefs” and refer to followers of a religion that you don’t like as “crackpots”? Or is it the use of the words IMMORAL and SIN that are as painful as physical violence to the human, and all other nasty words are just expressing the freedom of speech? I cannot think of any -real Christians- actually bashing homosexuals physically..Unless you have found some people who claimed to be Christians somewhere who assaulted homosexuals?

I can’t say that I think much of what is “given any respect by the media”. I don’t watch TV, and when I stumble upon an activated television unit, I am shocked by the naivety of those who would assume that reality is portrayed therein – even on the news. But I do know that the ACLU (far left) is constantly harassing Christians with lawsuits and the such. And in England, if a man were go to out on the streets and proclaim homosexuality as sin (or perhaps anything “anti-left”), strangers in the street could physically assault that man, and then in the end, he would be charged for disturbing the peace. Sound crazy? Look it up, for it has happened. Preachers have recently been charged with crimes for preaching the same gospel message that has been preached for years. If I recall, a man in Sweden was charged for preaching a sermon from the Bible in his church. Now that’s progressive.

That goes to show that it’s fine for people like you to bash Christianity in public or private..and it is OK to physically bash Christians who say things that aren’t “progressive” enough, but Christian speech…which is the same that is has been for centuries, is now a “hate crime”.

In addition, thinking someone is a crackpot because they have wacky beliefs (from my perspective, of course) isn’t intolerant – it is simply having a different belief. Taking action against someone because of their beliefs is intolerance. For example, the fact that you think Hinduism and Buddhism are “silly religions” isn’t intolerant until you start discriminating or advocating discrimination against people who follow those religions.

In the USA there are currently a lot of people associated with the far right taking action against others who disagree with them (gay bashing, for example). If you can point to any equivalent aggressive behavior coming from the far left that is given any respect by the media I’d love to hear it. I think the far left is in a purely defensive position – you can have whatever religion you want, just don’t force it on people who have different beliefs. That defensive position is part of why the left is seen as weak.